Proposed Changes to TBBR Policies

[walking eagle]

These changes will be submitted to the executive council at the next meeting :?: Your comments are most welcomed.
1. Raising minumum scores for non-typ whitetail from 115 to 135
2. Raising minumum scores for non-typ Mule deer from 115 to 145
3. Delete maximum % let-off on compounds.
4. Acceptance of damaged trophies.
5. Change "High-Fence" to Escape-Proof" on Fair Chase form.
6. New "Alligator" score form instead of bowfishing form.
Ron Collier
TBBR Chairman

[bowjunkie]

Only one item I have an exception with.
#3...Delete maximum % let-off on compounds.

It was raised to 80% two years ago and it was the single most divissive issue to hit the ranks in years. I had the displeasure, as then Secretary, of counting the votes and reading the comments and letters that came in on the issue then....it was not pretty reading some of the comments and there was a resultant loss of membership. I know, I know...ya can please some of the people...yada yada...BUT...We tread a slippery slope by going to a no max let-off scenario and there could be far reaching implications by even speaking those words in regards to membership and possibly to the Special Archery Season itself. (*edit note* the issue to increase to 80% last time squeaked by on just two (2) votes...there was more votes on that issue then the Officers Election it's self at the same time).

Plus, by not having a maximum let off set...you pave the way for draw-locs, crossbows and other mechanical devices to lobby to get into the books.

I personally feel that P&Y and the other orgs sold out to the Mfg's by raising their minimums. The line does have to be drawn somewhere in my opinion. 80% is plenty enough. Bowhunting is suposed to be challenging and the rush to embrace the ever increasing technology that makes "hunting easy" is a sell out to the ideology that made the org push for our own season on the basis it was primitive, more challenging and therefore deserving of it.
A 100% let-off bow...or even 90 for that matter could be drawn and held for a long, long time. I would venture I could pull a 40# single cam, 90 percent let-off bow and hold for 20 minutes or longer. That is not what archery is supposed to be about.

We start treading the 100% let-off line as a state org and we BLOW the door wide open for more encroachment or as Tomme says, and I agree, poaching of our seperate season. Along comes the crossbow mfg's who will have the ammo they need to say....Well look at the State org...they embrace 100% let-off....no different then a crossgun....we want in...then the muzzle loaders, then one big general season.

I would also caution Council against making this decision on their own and feel very strongly that this motion would need to be put out to a members vote and not entertained by the EC on their own, but feel even more strongly that the words 100% let-off should never even be uttered.

Thanks for putting this up for feedback. If this is still going to be entered into New Business at the council meeting..(When the heck is it by the way??).I would like to post this on The Bowsite, The Leatherwall and Texasbowhunter.com to let the archers of the state of Texas know of this proposal.

[Linedawg]

I am 100% with junkie on this. He said exactly what I was about to. I don't put much regard into record books on general. That one topic can have a wide reaching effect on bowhunting. Just read junkie's quote. He Aldo Leupold was right then and even more so now.

Linedawg

[walking eagle]

Maybe we should do away with compounds, sights, releases, pop-up blinds, and scent-loc camo.
Heck, let's just do away with bows and go back to jumping out of trees and biting the prey in the back of the neck. But if we did that, it would not be long before we had two categories, Teeth and False Teeth.

Seriously, We, as members of the LSBA have control of our Association and Records System and regardless of what the rest of the world of Bowhunting wants to do, we have the right to pick and chose the standards we desire.
Thanks for the comments, I am listening.Keeep them cards and letters coming
Ron

[bowjunkie]

Ron,

I agree we can pick and choose the standards that are representative of the membership at large. And unfortunately, the org does not get an overwhelming amount of support from the archery community until there is a crisis.

However if WE, as you aptly put it, make a move to a no max. let-off as THE State org...the crossbow mfg's. will use this information to lobby for their inclusion in the Archery Only season as it will be viewed as tacit approval by proxy on our part due to the org's actions.

I don't want to get into to what should be viewed or regulated as acceptable equipment in the vein of what is too much....re: the shopping list of stuff you mentioned above, but rather would like to see the issue addressed of WHAT the potential impact to the membership and the archery season would be by such a move by the LSBA. It is the repercussions of such a move in the short and moderate term that must be weighed.

I do not think there is any benefit to be gained by this move. That is the point I sincerely would like to hear answered by you as the author of this motion and as the TBBR Chair....What is the benefit to the org? Versus the potential detriment.

Thanks for making yourself available for discussion, it is a rare treat to see members of the EC make themselves available on this forum. We have alot more lurkers then registered members here, but they do check in to see what the org is doing.

[LostHawg]

First off, my membership has expired, so I suppose I don't have a leg to stand on in this discussion.

I tried to call in and renew the way I joined and renewed in the past, but the lady I spoke to sharply informed me to get a magazine and fill out an application and mail it in. It appeared that I was imposing on her in some way. Shoot I thought that since she was listed as an EC and had her number public, then I was free to call her. Silly me. I've been using my credit card as it is the easiest way for me. Incidentally, my printer has taken a dump and I can't print out the application as she instructed. Pushy ain't she.

As to the letoff question. It was one of the deciding factors for me stepping down as an EC member. When we held the vote, along with the previous high fence vote, it was put to the council by certain members in the effect that if you disagreed then watch your back. As I had my wife and kids with me, I was reluctant to speak my mind as I didn't want to say the wrong thing in front of my kids. Same with the high fence issue. Also, since I don't really care about the record book, it just wasn't important enough to me at the time looking at it in that regard.

I still think that 65% was plenty lenient. And, I agree with Mike on his point pertaining to the issue. I drove cross country to the TPWD meeting just to voice my opinion on the issue of crossbow and drawloc in the archery season as well as letting them know we didn't want to lose our bowhunting weekends to allow rifles in. We already share the last weekend with rifles when the same rifles have plenty of opportunity during the general.

Anyway, if someone could reach me by phone so I could renew my membership the way I'd done in the past, I would appreciate it. Seems, the council has lost control since Tomme and Kevin stepped down. But, hey, I'm not a member in good faith, so I don't have a say in that. Incidentally, I have not violated any of the bylaws, so you can't even go there if you choose. Sure wish the State Org would get a better handle on things. It has good potential that it appears to be snobbing in favor of the whims of a select few in a select region. JMHO

Sorry if I seem to be bitter. Can't help it. Now, I suppose it's the jump on LostHawg season again.

[Tomme]

Tracy, if you'll call or send me your email address I'll get an application in the mail today. LSBA needs all the members it can get and I remember you driving down to the banquet and even all the way down to the EXPO to help out.

Guys I don't think that Ron has any hard and fast feelings on this, he's just trying to make the TBBR as active as it was under Ed. I applaud him for that. Keep in mind that some of the biggest controversies the association has had has been over equipment. Over the years a number of folks have quit over these equipment issues and in my view they shouldn't have.

LSBA is the ONLY group in Texas that year after year has worked hard to represent all the bowhunters of the state. Doesn't mean that we can't disagree or have differences of opinion on some issues, such as letoff, high fence, baiting deer, etc. but when that happens what we need to do (in my opinion) is let the membership vote on the matter, and then if we're on the losing end we need to remember that the matter voted on is not nearly as big as the overall mission of LSBA which is to "preserve and promote bowhunting".

Not pointing the fingers at anyone here (as I like everyone who has posted), but don't want anyone to get to upset and get flamed over this.

[Linedawg]

Ron, I'm really not too sure how to take the first paragraph of your reply. It sounds to at least imply that you would be in favor of the no restriction on compound let-off.

Again, I am with Mike on this. I don't shoot a compound and have no issues with those that do. I started out with a compound and enjoyed shooting it. Since then I have changed to shooting trad gear. I have no problems with modern archery gear except one. The pursuit of short cuts and an easier life. Now, for me, this is fine in most aspects of life but not in hunting. I believe that in bowhunting, especially, there should be limitations to the advancement of gear. Man has proved that there is little he can not accomplish when set out to. A 100% let off bow would not be impossible in my mind. If that were the case then even the quote you use would be negated. And, as Mike said, it would open the door to equipment that has no place in the archery season. Or worse, it may (MAY) lead to an ending of the archery only season. Our season comes under attack often enough with out us (those who enjoy an archery only season) giving them (those who would like to end the season) ammunition to use against us.

Now, I would also like to say that this is not an attack on you personally. I am discussing the issue which you have taken the time to bring up here. An issue that I happen to strongly disagree with but which is being considered by the EC and there for by you. So, it could sound personal (or read personal as the case may be) since I am addressing you in the first person here. Ron I would like to thank you for taking the time to discuss this on an open forum. I wish all our members could log on and read and participate in such a discussion. I also wish all of our EC had the time and such to come on here and visit with us about relavent and non-relavent topics. So, thanks again.

Losthawg, if you want to call me I'll take your cc number and other pertinant information. Not that it will help you get renewed but I may get a lot of new hunting gear out of it! :twisted: Tomme made the offer first but I will as well. PM me your snail mail addy and I'll get a renewal form to you. Tomme did it for me so the least I could do is to pass on the favor.

Linedawg

[walking eagle]

Gentlemen,
Thanks to those that are willing to share their views.
The TBBR was set up in 1975. At that time, the P & Y Club was and still is the "Guru" of recording bowhunting data in North America. We chose to model the Texas Records System in like manner as to simplifiy the requirements so that when we talk "Records", we are all on the same page.
Over the years, P & Y has had to make admendments to their policies to accomadate the best interest of bowhunting. The TBBR has seen fit to adapt policy to stay current with these standards and guidelines brought about by a well rounded group of experienced and knowledgable bowhunters that make up the P&Y board of directors. They too had a difficult job resolving the let-off decision, which has gone on for years. What ramifications will surface; only time will tell.
My job as Records Chairman is not to change the course of the LSBA or bowhunting in the State of Texas, but to regulate and manage a fair and non-bias record keeping system of game taken by moral and ethical standards for the Bowhunters of Texas. I will from time to time, make recommendations of changes that I truly feel are for the betterment of the TBBR and serve to enhance the availability to those who wish to be a part of Bowhunting History in Texas.
My doors of communication are always open to those that I serve.
Ron Collier

[bowjunkie]

Ron,

Thoroughly enjoyed the email communication. Man...I had no idea you were there when the org got founded...tip of the camo hat to you.

I'm as guilty as the next guy in getting fired up on those issue which I feel personal about, but also highly repsect your position and opinion. I agree to disagree :wink:

I look forward to the further discussions and would also like to throw my hat into the ring and offer any help you may ever need in regards to the TBBR should you ever need it. I know Ed's shoes are tough to fill, but from what I have seen in the last 5 years, you're doing the best job since.

Yours in Archery

[Frontloader]

Ron

I appreciate the posting of the proposed changes and the following discussion.

For my information, what was the rationale given for the proposed changes. I can think of some reasons for some of the items, but that doesn't mean those are the reasons that were initially offered.

I need info from both sides on this to be able to make a decision. That is why I ask for the rationale. There has to be a reason or the changes would have not been proposed.

Thanks.

Ed

[BOBSTER]

My 2 cents, for what it is worth. I think the TBBR is heading in the right direction now in getting more people involved in entering their game just by letting everyone know what needs to be done to get something entered. I had no knowledge of what needed to be done prior to this past spring turkey season. I had to email the past TBBR chairman and ask what I needed to do to enter a turkey if I was to kill one. I would not have known to weigh the bird and have a witness if under 20 pounds or have it weighed on a certified scale if over 20 pounds. I killed a javelina and wanted to enter it, I had no idea that I just needed to have the skull measured, I had gutted the javelina and then weighed it, not needing to now. I thought maybe they were scored by weight like in the big deer contest when someone enters a hog or javelina. I still really don't know what I would have to do if I was to stick some type of fish, either weigh, measure or both. It has always been in the LSBA magazine to get you game entered, but there never was anything about what needed to be done to get the game entered. Now about the let off. I really can't say if I am for or against. I was not able to enter my 140 class whitetail in P&Y because of the let off and being that it was killed from behind a 2200 acre high fence pasture. Now with the new rules, I could make the letoff requirement, but still would not becasue of the high fence. No big deal, I still have a nice deer and it wasn't a canned hunt, and it still scores 140. In several more years, when it is time to buy a new bow, I will get one of the best bows that is avaliable, if I am needing a new bow. Hopefully by then I will have changed to traditionial equipment by then. Now this will be the last thing I will say on the issue. Whatever % we choose for the letoff, that is not going to be our issue in keeping our archery stamp alive or keeping our own archery season. :wink:

[walking eagle]

Frontloader,
The TBBR methods of scoring non-typical whitetail and mule deer are outdated. P&Y made their changes several years ago, and TBBR needs to up-date the methods and score sheets. Upon further review of the levels of entries in these categories, I have found that the lowest rankings are still well above the proposed minimums, therefore I have recommended minimum scores that are still lower than P&Y, but are representive of a quality animal.
The let-off issue has been resolved by P&Y and put to bed. I feel we should follow suit. As long as we carry a number that defines "% let-off" means that will have expand our Fair Chase Affidavit information to enclude ALL of the detailed information of the compound bow used to harvest an animal.
For damaged trophies, see the topic" Damaged Trophy" in the Point to Point section.
The reason for a seperate form for Alligators instead of using the standard bowfishing form is that there is needed information, and permit numbers for alligaor hunting that are not on the Bowfishing score sheet.
P&Y has also changed the wording "High Fence" to "Escape Proof", this makes enteries more acceptable under that definition.
I hope this helped some
Ron

[LostHawg]

Linedawg, last thing I need is a new longbow that I'd never see or use. Or, bow building equipment, or any other such thing. Heck, I may just find myself owner of a small trad archery shop and not even know where it's located.

No, I better not send you my number. :shock: :lol: :roll:

[Linedawg]

Well, my los... I mean your loss! 8)

Ron, Thanks for keeping us posted. An active EC member is a valued member. I hope we can get together at some hunts.