Shoot, they could even make January 15 through February 15 a youth season. There are just too many alternatives for P&W that they don't even need to mess with October.

One weekend for youth hunting is a joke. How many times do you think a prior engagement comes up where that child is robbed of his/hers weekend hunt. What if leases only allow children during youth weekend and they miss it.

How many 12 and under kids do you know that are not tied up with all the other extracurricular activites that have the time to practice and be able to pull a 40# bow to kill a whitetail. Not many! And I'm sorry but letting an inexperienced young hunter shoot at an animal with anything less is not ethical IMO. Too much left to chance. It is our duty to insure that the weapons we hunt with are sufficient enough to kill with.

Opening them up to hunting then bringing them into bowhunting gradually is the way to go. Not just say. If you want to hunt you have to wait.



What good does it do for kids to hunt stressed whitetails where the majority of hunters have picked over most of the deer. Once again comes back to not putting the children first and foremost instead telling them we'll let you after all the grownups get to pick over the hunting.

More of the same "me" comes first.

What good does it do for kids to hunt stressed whitetails where the majority of hunters have picked over most of the deer.

So you are saying deer are stressed due to bowhunters picking over most deer?

To be honest, I'm not sold on the need for ANY youth days/season. I think some people are looking at this like kids are going to just show up because its a youth day, like we do for opening day. These kids have to get to the woods somehow, who is bringing them?
I dont think there are many kids that hunt unless they are with their parents or family members. Therefore, they can hunt ALL SEASON long. if a parent wont let them hunt on any day of the season why should we think that parent would take time out to bring them on a youth weekend?

They dont have to be able to pull 40 pounds. If you agree with the rule or not it IS the rule that there is no min draw weight.
I do agree it is up to the parent to decide when a kid is ready to shoot at an animal. Bow or gun.


While this is your opinion, and I respect it, I dont have to agree with it.
Why not bring them into hunting with a bow as the weapon of choice, then introduce them to guns.
You would still be bringing them into hunting, and teaching all the same "outdoorsmanship" (is that a word??) skills to them.
Is there a specific reason you feel kids should hunt with guns before hunting with a bow?



This would not be a problem if they were bow hunting.

If they are hunting with rifles, the stress factor is non existant. That is a weak argument at best. You set the kid in a walled in blind, zero his/her scope to 100 yards, set a feeder up at 80 yards and wait for the deer to come in to feed. Lay the stock on a rest and the kid snuggles up to the butt of the gun looking through 3 - 9X50 and squeezes off the round and the deer never even knows he/she was there.

The stress factor is not an issue for gun hunting. The deer can't outrun the bullet like it can an arrow.

Very weak...

My only concern would be the weather and that's an adaptable thing. It can be overcome. Part of learning to hunt.

And its a pretty sorry parent that's afraid to tell his/her child they need to wait till they're a little more mature.

I find you arrogant when you continue to call someone selfish because they don't agree with you that a already in place season should be done away with. You don't know any of us. And yes, putting youth gun in the archery only WILL do away with it.

I don't think you want to discuss the real reasons for hunting numbers falling in Texas. Youth hunting is not the answer because it (youth hunting) is and has been going on for several years in Texas.

Travis I've looked and I see nowhere that I brought up your age. The "improvement" is your opinion only and weak at that.

You are right, I see no analogy there at all.

You seem to have skipped right over this one.

I said I was done before, I truly am now. Continue your stirring.

Tracy said add in youth season after general. Which would be where I was emphasizing the stressed deer from hunters in the woods.

I keep repeating myself. The point is to give them a head start BEFORE everyone else.

It is my opinion that a bow is not efficient enough to kill a deer with a bow that is less than 40#'s. If it is questionable then why let them shoot a deer and wound it. Then you have lost a deer and you have a disappointed hunter.

With regards to big game. A gun is much more efficient killing a big game animal. A .243 that is low recoil stands a much better chance at killing a deer than a 20 or 30# compound. It is about respect for the game and providing a clean kill.

for the reasons above I have IMO shown you why the bow is inadequate for a young child to hunt big game. My daughter will have a kiddy bow the first moment she can be able to pull one back. She wont be able to bowhunt whitetails until she can pull 40 and be able to demonstrate that she can handle shooting big game with a rifle first.

Let me get this straight. Because you dont like my way of life it's arrogant! I hate to break it to you BILL. But everything that is being done to promote hunting IS FAILING MISERABLY! NOTHING we are currently doing is working.

Selfishness and greed is the main problem solving causing the decline in hunting, along with other faster gratification less time consuming hobbies.

So are you done now or are you going to keep on calling names while everyone else has remained level headed. You find that because I think differently I'm stirring the pot. Well i have news for you bill. I dont have to fall under the cookie cutter plan that is FAILING! I'm working on being proactive to make this GROW!


LMAO! You as well as everyone else has used gun hunting as a stress factor that will cause deer to leave your hunting areas. Now you're saying that gun hunting has no effect and putting a youth season after general wouldnt be hunting stressed deer. Seriously Tracy. You're all over the board trying to emphasize your points but you're flip flopping faster than john kerry on the war. I have no problem telling my daughter she needs to wait to bowhunt!

I am done arguing with everyone here. It is clear that no one that is apart of LSBA cares to listen to opposing views, overlooks the obvious that we are failing by a large margin at adding new hunters or keeping retension high.

Our programs are not working. Hopefully one day someone besides the handful are going to wake up (hopefully before we no longer have any hunting seasons) and realize it is time we put our future first and our wants second.

I'm done and not just saying I'm done and continue to post.

I beg your pardon Travis
This boy is 9

There's more to hunting than taking the shot!

Travis, it appears to me that you aren't looking at the big picture.

Furthermore, you take our stance against rifle hunting in the archery season as being opposed to encouraging youth to hunt. Then you spend your whole effort talking about taking the shot, not hunting and making the shot happen.

First and foremost the child MUST learn his way in the woods. No ifs, ands or buts. Giving the child a bow and taking that child hunting for rabbits, quail, squirrel, other small game will do this. Far better than shooting with a rifle from an elevated box blind that you can drive to, drop the kid off, sit there till its time to leave. THAT is not hunting. You put the kid on the ground with a 25 or 30 pound bow and chase rabbits, and that kids going to be grinning from ear to ear as he passes out in the truck on the return drive home. Then, you'll be hard pressed for a moment of silence at supper as he retails a dozen times how his arrow skipped over the ears of that rabbit that was hiding under the prickly pear. Travis, you've GOT to take a kid HUNTING to understand. That gun you want them to have so badly is NOT how you teach a kid to hunt and ENJOY hunting. You give that child a bow or a light gauge shotgun and go after small game (which IS open in October) and you let them lead on the TRAIL. In this you can teach them deer sign, what a coon track looks like, a squirrel's trash after peeling a black walnut, etc. You don't do that with a .243 in a tower or brush blind. No, you put that child on the ground, on the trail, HUNTING.

What you and P&W are pursuing is NOT doing this. You look at hunting as just sitting there and when the deer shows up, turns sideways, you take the shot and you're HUNTING!! No. You have GOT to teach that kid from level one. What you and P&W have in mind is not hunting, it is merely "harvesting game".

See my avatar? I would never have been able to do that if I hadn't started at an early age hunting small game and learning when I can and can't move. If I hadn't learned to use the terrain as well as the flora as cover. When I could and couldn't take the shot. What better vehicle than the bow and arrow to teach these to a child? Not the rifle. The rifle isolates you from the environment and the animals you pursue. You don't learn much at all. Just shoot, cut and drag. Sometimes, not often, but sometimes you'll track a wounded animal, but not very often.

Archery, in this, prevails.

Point taken, but your line of reason doesnt make much sense to me.
If we are to give them a head start BEFORE everyone else then October isnt the answer. They will be hunting with someone else, BOW HUNTERS.
If you are saying they need a head start before the other GUN hunters, then maybe we should suggest that November 1st through 10th be youth only.
With all the talk of selfishness, why cant gun hunters give up 10 days of their 3 months? (or more if they are MLD) Why should bow hunters, who have "bought" the right to have a month to themselves without gun fire be asked to give that up?



I'll never tell someone their opinion is wrong, but I can and will disagree with it.
The state says a bow less than 40# is legal to use.
The state says you must be 16 to drive, 18 to vote, 21 to drink, and you cant deer hunt with a rim fire rifle.
We must accept those rules and follow them. If you dont agree with a rule or law then you must get active and change it, but dont base an entire argument off the fact that the law doesnt reflect your opinion.



Again, I see this as a parental responsibility. The parent must judge when a child is at what they feel is a proper draw weight.

Personally I feel if a child cant hold, steady, aim, and fire a gun without any help from someone they are not ready to gun hunt.

A child that is strong enough to do those things with a gun, is a child who can shoot a bow with enough #'s to kill a deer. It just takes practice and dedication.

Travis, You posted that you were done while I was typing the above post.
I value your opinion and would like to continue trying to understand you view point.
Dont get your feelings hurt and go away. If you feel strongly, make an effort to let others see your side of the story.

Be respectful (not saying you havent been) and have a healthy debate.

I still think I can turn you to my views :)

MC...Shouldnt you be stuffin' sausage or something..What I dont understand is why you get on a BOWHUNTING site and go against the grain, I guess TTHA doesnt have a forum....You say your for ALL hunters, but you continue to push your views, while they are not anti-hunting, they impose changes to what many BOWHUNTERS have fought for many years...ie: crossbows, firearms during BOW ONLY season...Then try to use children as a crutch to convence yourself that you are right and evreyone who doesnt agree with your view is out of touch, on a sinking ship or selfish...You say the system is broken, I say your wrong...Texas has about 160K bowhunters....every year more people get into bowhunting.....The major factor that hunting may or may not be declining is because of (2) major reasons....ACCESS and COST....You could have youth season 365 days a year and it would not increase youth partisipation...Its a changing world we live in...with all the extra curricular activities kids are involved in today...some the youths want, others that the parents push there kids into....there is simply not enough time...do you think parents that dont have time to take their kids hunting in Nov & Dec are really gonna have more time in Oct...school starting, football, band, FFA, 4-H..homework.....video games...I know the "time out" generation has a hard time understanding that everyone will not make the team, sometimes YOU lose and sometimes you have to just sit in the stands...thats REAL life....Also, I have seen this personally, many times parents try to push there kids into someting that the PARENT is interested in, and kids push away....Just because you like hunting, fishing, whatever, doesnt mean your kids will...IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.....Sportsmen are doing just fine......Take Care :)

Very well put.

weare tripping all over the answer i just saw it we leave oct as special archery season nov will be special general season where you can hunt youth rifle adult/youth shotgun adult/youth muzzle loader adult/youth crossbow adult /youth archery.then in dec ,as well as jan regular general season for all.this way all these rifle hunters can say i gave some to incorporate youth.lets ask the rifle hunters to give instead of take.we extend the season to the end of jan.be part of the solution instead of the problem.

:) Thanks for throwing those in there Ronny. When we got home I put it on the scale and it is actually set at 30 pounds. So I guess a 30 pound bow will do the job. :D

Ding, ding, ding....we have a winner, Johnny!

Tell traildust what he's won!

That boy is awesome. And, I expect to see Liam doing the squat too in the next few years. ;) As well as Caitlin...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../Caityhood.jpg

She's just got to build up to weight. ;) Will be taking her out with a .223 this year in hopes of her getting her first. She's also 9. But, It will probably be next week or later. I just don't seem to have much time this year for some reason.

The "me" accusation is getting old. While it certainly may apply to some, to paint the whole archery community as such is unfair. I could just as easily say it's a "me first" thing that has parents seriousily slacking in the area of taking their children hunting during rifle season or it's "me first" that has some lease groups and landowners not allowing children to hunt outside the youth weekend, if they even allow kids to hunt at all. It's all un-productive "chatter" though.

The only reason I picked up a bow as a young adult in the first place was to spend more time in the woods hunting. There was never a point that I felt slighted or thought, "Those dang bowhunters gettin a head start...." I just picked up a bow and got after it. And during the many years where I quit bowhunting and only rifle hunted, I never had a problem with it either.

If bow season is open to youth rifle, what incentive will there be for youth to take up bow hunting? Most people and hunters basically tend to take the easiest route. I firmly believe that if a dedicated archery season is not kept in place, a SERIOUS decline in bowhunting will result over time. What a shame that would be.

I wonder how long behind this will come the push to open the general season Oct 1st?

I don't know what the long-term answer is to hunting particapation. I do not want to see the doing away with a dedicated archery season a part of the solution. This may go against the grain, but given the choice, I would rather see archery only be the last month of the season than give it up all together.

At least we have generated some conversation on this topic and obviously some of us are very passionate about our opinions. Beleg covered it very well and pretty much sums up our position. The LSBA supports the youth of this state and have for years. Our booth at the TPW Expo has consistently been the most popular youth shooting event. We put the bow in the hands of over 7000 kids every year statewide. I will challenge anyone who questions our committment to youth hunters.

I also know for a fact, I was there, that the Commission used youth and women as their excuse for eliminating the minimum draw weight earlier this year not scientific evidence which was our recommendation. It seems to me they opened a youth archery season when they made that decision.

The following is an excerpt from TPWs Press Release regarding the upcoming public hearings:

"In response to a commission directive to seek additional opportunities for youth participation, the department is looking at extending the early youth only season to include the entire month of October and the late youth-only season by 12 days during January in selected counties to run concurrently with late antlerless and spike seasons. The intent of the proposal is to allow adults and children to hunt together during different special seasons."

Now a literal reading of the release "youth only" could mean no adult hunters without a qualifying youth. You also have to remember that in their infinite wisdom the Commission lowered the age for certification in Hunter Ed to 9. That means it is completely legal for an ARMED UNESCORTED 9 year old to be in the woods with you. Not likely but a scary thought just the same.

The LSBA could have supported the original proposal but Chairman Holt showed his true feelings about bow hunters when he issued the directive to consider the entire month of October.

If you think it will stop here then you are naive. We already have guns on MLDs in October now youth with guns in October. It's just one easy step to a General Season that runs from October thru January.

And just think we haven't even started facing the pending cross-bow issue yet but you can bet it's coming this next legislative session.

Having fun yet?

DoubleJ...Carry on..You have my support........I just renewed my membership...actually getting a family pack

Yes it does sound like a youth archery season was made. Maybe they need to be reminded of that.

I like the last line of this. The way I see it is if they are hunting "diffrent special seasons" they should follow the rules of that season. For example, bow during oct.



If this is true, and the chairman or any of the commissioners feel this way towards us, how do we go about removing them from their seat? Are they appointed, elected, and by whom? How long are their terms?

Didn't he refer to bowhunters as a "special interest group"?

Yes they did Tracy. In my opinion this Commission has shown a tremendous disrespect for the 135,000 or so bowhunters of this state. They have forgotten the fact that bowhunters lobbied them to institute the Archery Stamp in exchange for our Special Archery Season. Now we are nothing more than a "Special Interest" group. Unfortunately the Commissioners are appointed by the Governor (who happens to be a bowhunter). Perhaps we need to be letting him know how we feel.

I just can't get over bowhunters willing to throw away bow season. Just doesn't make sense. What exactly is the LSBA standing up for if its not to act as a buffer to these?

On my list for tomorrow: Email the office of the Governor.

Before I moved to South Texas In terms of the case that "Guns scare deer" thinking here's my observation from a 1,800 ac lease my folks and me were on not to long ago in Sutton County:

On this lease were ten hunters and only two were rifle only (my folks) the rest of us bow/rifle hunted and as such had ground blinds and tripods close to our feeding areas. Of all ten stand locations my parents stands had the most clam deer. Feeding stations were pretty much the same (two corn feeders in a small stand of cedar or oak) but the feeders with the more bowhunting going on at them the deer's head was on a swivel and the deer never seemed at ease.

The deer at my parents feeders never were skittish or jumpy, they just walked in and ate corn in peace and even stayed at the feeder when they left the area or walked back in to the feed pen a few minutes after they shot another deer. Everyone pretty much hunted the major holiday weekends and opening days and a few weekends in between so the blinds pretty much saw the same amount of hunting. it was from these observations I started putting a ground blind about 50 yds back on the major trail the deer used to my feeders and had wonderful luck bowhunting.

So my question is why are you still hunting after the archery season if it's SOOO much harder because all those rifles are going off?

Russ, I know you're tired of hearing about my little 198 acres in East Texas, but we haven't seen any deer at a stand since October. ;)

Apples - Oranges

Is yes or no the only option here? How about a happy middle.

Youth's can use guns during October only on leases or ranches over 5000 acres located in a 3 buck county.


Naa, ......I still dont like it. Bow hunters have paid for the privilege of hunting in October without competition from gun hunters.
If this goes through, do yall think the archery stamp will go away?

JRUSS,
I know you make your living guiding, so are you thinking that if this is passes it will get more kids/parents hunting, therefore increasing YOUR workload....which in turn means more money in your pocket?... Your argument that you want kids to be able to hunt 95 days like bowhunters is invalid, because if THEY start out bowhunting, THEY can hunt the 95 days like US bowhunters. You have to crawl before you walk...Whats YOUR real agenda...personal gain?:)

To answer your question, because it's legal and after 40 years of being strictly a gun hunter, I prefer bowhunting for the past 6 years. Your above experiences don't begin to speak to the small acreage bow hunter in Texas. I could give you my experiences but I won't bother, it wouldn't matter to you.

I have to wonder why someone that would do away with archery only season bothers to come to bow hunting websites. Make no mistake, October youth season WOULD do away with the archery season.

I think JR's signature speaks volumes!

"I'm all for the sport of hunting by any legal means possible........My JOB depends on it!"

I think the primary problem is the actual hunter traffic. The more human scent left in the deers "safe haven", the less safe it feels and the more likely it will lay up and/or become skittish. The sound of a gun is much akin to thunder and as far as the deer is concerned, one boom in an 8 hour period is gone and forgotten. But, when you have hunters walking the senderos, fencelines and racing their ORVs back and forth looking for a hot stand, the quicker the animals become nocturnal. The other factor is safety. A bullet can travel quite a distance; an arrow a few hundred yards. A bullet will cross "198" mighty quick and with no substantial loss in energy. Just not what you want when you're camo'd top to toe and the shooter doesn't see you sitting 200 yards across the fence. They see "deer" at 100 yards, fence 50 yards further and brush/trees as a backdrop. They don't see bowhunter sitting on a tripod amidst a liveoak crown.

And, gun hunters, pertaining to human interaction, don't have to descent as the bowhunter does, so that means more human scent in the deer's safe haven and back to the going nocturnal thing...

So, safety and shot opportunity diminish quite a bit once the mass of gun hunters enter the picture. I've got 3 kids, so instead of 1 hunter in the woods, there's 4. So, using me as a comparison, that's quite an increase.

LH it's unfortunate also that many, many in the woods are unaware of the change in law back in 2005 requiring that a projectile from a firearm not be shot in a direction that would cause it to cross property lines. I find it appalling that hunters don't update themselves with the regs every year. I basically have to keep my neighbors informed. At least on the ones that can effect my safety.

Does that include .22's ......at night?? :p

Sorry I couldnt resist, its my :bedtime:. I'll check in this evening when I wake up.

Exactly.

Omni, that's funny. The only deer that I know of my grandfather ever killing he killed with a .22 LR while he was fishing. Came and told us kids he got him an 8 point bass.... :D

The poll on this site is great, except the part where you can vote multiple times....

Just like to point out the blatantly obvious changing of your opinion on stress into relation of gun hunters tracy.


Then you changed your mind back. LOL!



I love the safety argument. Because gun hunters and bowhunters arent sitting in the same woods as bow hunters in november, december, january. :rolleyes:

Seriously use deductive reasoning. I cant wait till this goes before our legislature. I've already talked to one of the chairs on the committee that this will fall under. :D

I've thought about this issue alot over the last few days. The only way I could support opening the season would be for it to be for a trial period of say 2 to 3yrs max, and the success or failure would be determined by increased sales of youth licenses...and I don't mean a 1% increase either. I don't know what the % would/should be, but if the % increase is not met, then the additional time added to the youth season would be eliminated. If this could be written in stone and absolutely adhered to, I might would consider being a yes on the issue. However, I am still unwilling yield on there not being a dedicated archery only season regardless of the success of the trial. For me to consider being a "yes" on the issue would take additional archery only days being added to the calendar elsewhere.

Still, I do not think this is the fix for hunter participation. While I have not looked at all the other states seasonal dates, the few I have looked at seem to show that Texas already has some of the most liberal dates for hunting in terms of days and weapons of choice.

Anyone know how many states do not have a dedicated archery season?

Travis...

You're almost as bullheaded as I am... :D

Read what I've posted carefully.

i dont think we should give an inch trial period or not.it is alot easier to keep your worms in the container than to let some out then put them back up as well as keep the rest in bowhunting in texas is on the firing line and we need to unite and lean hard against the tide of change on this issue.
keep em in the 12 ring.

I agree. Not an inch David.